Why did we drop Archangel as a sponsor?

BASixxer wrote:

KevinGT wrote:I have a friend here in OKC that sent his GT500 to Shelby for the Super Snake package. It was gone for months and when it arrived back at his house last week the car was filthy, swirls in the paint and fisheyes in the new KR hood. They are reloading back on the hauler and it is going back.

Everytime I deal with a vendor I think my problems stem from not picking a good partner but sadly all vendors are the same, your results may vary based on 100 different variables.

Most people that I have seen that just brag and brag about a vendor are usually somehow vested with them. There car is either in the garage or they are trying to build a relationship and hope throwing out a good word helps them in the pecking order.

I am trying to do this with Evenflow Solutions for a discounted head port... So far it's not working...

I hear the owner can be a real pain.

Evenflow Solutions wrote:

BASixxer wrote:

KevinGT wrote:I have a friend here in OKC that sent his GT500 to Shelby for the Super Snake package. It was gone for months and when it arrived back at his house last week the car was filthy, swirls in the paint and fisheyes in the new KR hood. They are reloading back on the hauler and it is going back.

Everytime I deal with a vendor I think my problems stem from not picking a good partner but sadly all vendors are the same, your results may vary based on 100 different variables.

Most people that I have seen that just brag and brag about a vendor are usually somehow vested with them. There car is either in the garage or they are trying to build a relationship and hope throwing out a good word helps them in the pecking order.

I am trying to do this with Evenflow Solutions for a discounted head port... So far it's not working...

I hear the owner can be a real pain.

I heard he's a good guy, just gotta break through that outter skin first.

I cannot bite my tongue anymore.

I AM IN NO WAY BASHING ANY TUNER, SHOP, PERSON, PLACE, ANYONE ON HERE OR NOT ON HERE......PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE ON THEIR CUSTOMER SERVICE OR TUNING CAPABILITIES, OR WHAT MAY HAVE OR DID NOT TAKE PLACE THAT WENT GOOD OR BAD FOR SOMEONE THAT I WAS NOT PRESENT FOR. I AM SIMPLY TRYING TO TAKE AN OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW ON THE PRICING, AND A SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW WITH MY STATED OPINIONS IN BOLD.


I will simply state this:

Even though I was out of town on the Nov. 5th dyno day, I read the thread about the club dyno session and I have this input. I think that "2 pulls with A/F $75" or "2 pulls no A/F reading $50" is absolutely ridiculous and entirely way overpriced for the cost vs. service provided. Especially for a club sponsor, IN MY OPINION. Now, I have never met Kurtis, so I cannot vouch for anything but what I read advertised on here as what the price/service was with him vs. my other experience.

Again not trying to talk smack against one vs. another. Just talking facts on dyno costs.

On my last dyno I paid $30 for three pulls with A/F and boost PSI readings (and the obvious HP and TQ readings too) on a loaded dyno, no wheel removal required (although it did require the proper/extensive strapping since I have IRS) in which I did not have to do anything but drive the car on and off the dyno, and sit in the car and run it.

I will always try to support a club sponsor if the price/service is reasonable or competitive. Case in point, ever since I've had a Mustang, I've always had Bob Hurley perform my oil changes (when I remember to do them, lol). This was before I was a member here, and I will continue to do so as long as Bob Hurley stays competitive with their prices of oil changes (or other needs/wants I may have for them).

Even though I was not in town on the 5th, I would not have, nor will I ever pay $75 for 2 dyno pulls with A/F when I can pay $30 for 3 dyno pulls with A/F and boost PSI (as well as the obvious HP and TQ readings).

I encourage the club execs to talk to our club sponsors, at any time, for any reason, when the case is determined for you to do so, to make sure they are not "gouging" on their prices/services.

IN MY OPINION (and again not trying to talk smack or offend anyone on here or otherwise in the realm of the Mustang world) in this case, I see that as a price gouge on a dyno session. And to further that point, anyone I've talked to outside the club within this region that is into cars also stated they would never pay $75 for 2 dyno pulls with A/F. Most laughed at the question.



If the pricing was different than what was advertised in the Nov. 5th dyno session thread, please correct me.

Where did you go for a $30 pull? $50-$75 is the norm for all clubs around here that I see...

Of course, it depends on the equipment used as well. Plus the fact that we shut down his shop in order to do it. The employees were tending to us, not working on $30,000 builds...

Every dyno day ive been to at Greg's and Vang's are always $20-$30 for 3 pulls depending on if you're gtting a/f readings or not. They also "shut down" their shops to do them as well. Cant really be doing anything else if you're running a dyno.

There is a huge difference between the two types of Dyno. It's much quicker and less work to just pull up on a roller, get strapped in and have a sniffer thrown in your tailpipe then it is to unbolt tires, bolt up to the Dynapack units, have a high quality AF meter placed in a bung in your exhaust, give plenty of time for cool down between runs. There is a good reason it was the price it was. This was a more thorough Dyno session than just running for numbers. The cost did not cover the amount for the day of use.

I guess people expect everything for free? Might as well go "occupy" his establishment. Afterall why should anyone have to pay for anything right!?

Seriously. WTF?

and what kind of A/F equipment are they using??? tailpipe sniffer??

BASixxer wrote:Where did you go for a $30 pull? $50-$75 is the norm for all clubs around here that I see...

Of course, it depends on the equipment used as well. Plus the fact that we shut down his shop in order to do it. The employees were tending to us, not working on $30,000 builds...

Lee, my answer to your question lies within/is Aaron's answer above. To answer your question on equipment, it was Dyno Dynamics I think. And like Aaron said, the shop was shut down and only dynos were being done

Mike to answer your question on the A/F tailpipe sniffer or not, I don't think it was a tailpipe sniffer. I only 60% confident in that answer. I'll leave an exact answer to that question for someone else to answer.....and it's really moot to me soon anyways as I will have a wideband A/F in my cabin soon....

Dynapak and any hub rpm based absorber along with any upstream 02 based AFR sensor equipment will ALWAYS be more accurate that any inertia only or water/eddy brake absorber dyno that measures rolling HP/TQ and tailpipe sniffer. This is coming from someone who has owned an eddy brake and an inertia only dyno. The equipment is twice the initial investment. That investment gets passed to the consumer. If you only want the numbers to be close then by all means use an inertia only unit like a Dynojet or Land and Sea. Then subtract or add 5-7% to whichever direction makes you feel better. Tailpipe sniffers on the other hand are absolute junk. The amount of lost EGT (Thus changing the resulting gas density) after 12 ft of piping makes the readings anywhere from .1 - .8 AFR off.

^good info right there.


They did use a sniffer at Greg's on the Dyno day. He uses a sensor in the bung though when he tunes, well on mine at least.

07Shelby500 wrote:There is a huge difference between the two types of Dyno. It's much quicker and less work to just pull up on a roller, get strapped in and have a sniffer thrown in your tailpipe then it is to unbolt tires, bolt up to the Dynapack units, have a high quality AF meter placed in a bung in your exhaust, give plenty of time for cool down between runs. There is a good reason it was the price it was. This was a more thorough Dyno session than just running for numbers. The cost did not cover the amount for the day of use.

I guess people expect everything for free? Might as well go "occupy" his establishment. Afterall why should anyone have to pay for anything right!?

Seriously. WTF?

Here you and others go on getting all defensive on Kurtis. I never attacked him. I gave my opinion based on facts from a dyno session I had, based upon the thread you started. I've never talked about quality of equipment, A/F sensor placement, quality of the A/F sensor, etc. And when I dynoed, we all had plenty of cool off time. AND I NEVER DID ASK FOR ANYTHING FOR FREE!

Listen David, I'm not going to take crap from your or anyone on this. You can effing ban me if you want. I don't care. All i did and will continue to do is state fact. What I paid for 3 pulls on a loaded dyno with A/F and boost PSI vs. the thread you posted. The concensus I've received from ANYONE I've asked in the region (Stangers and non-Stangers, and mostly people that aren't into car as more of a hobby like me, you know, people that are into cars on a professional level) is that $70 for 2 pulls with A/F, no matter the type or brand of dyno, no matter the location of the A/F and the brand type of A/F sensor, is OVERPRICED. AND AGAIN, LET ME STATE THIS, I'VE NEVER MET KURTIS, AND I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST HIM. BUT I WILL NOT PAY FOR AN OVERPRICED DYNO SESSION FROM ANYONE. I was very clear on my first post that it was an evaulation of dyno cost vs dyno cost, NOT on equipment, nor tuner, nor etc. Nor was I asking for anything for free. I stated a fact. I paid $30 for 3 pulls on a loaded dyno with A/F and boost PSI and I didn't have to pull my wheel off, Kurtis (per your post) was charging $70 for 2 pulls with A/F and the wheel had to be removed. I'm no dummy and no one else is. A dyno is a dyno is a dyno. All are different depending upon location, brand, type, person running it, etc. In this case both people used a loaded dyno in Tulsa Ok, different brands mind you (and I'm sure different brands of A/F sensors too. I stated today, I cannot vouch for the A/F sensor location.

Evenflow Solutions wrote:Dynapak and any hub rpm based absorber along with any upstream 02 based AFR sensor equipment will ALWAYS be more accurate that any inertia only or water/eddy brake absorber dyno that measures rolling HP/TQ and tailpipe sniffer. This is coming from someone who has owned an eddy brake and an inertia only dyno. The equipment is twice the initial investment. That investment gets passed to the consumer. If you only want the numbers to be close then by all means use an inertia only unit like a Dynojet or Land and Sea. Then subtract or add 5-7% to whichever direction makes you feel better. Tailpipe sniffers on the other hand are absolute junk. The amount of lost EGT (Thus changing the resulting gas density) after 12 ft of piping makes the readings anywhere from .1 - .8 AFR off.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner folks!

I'm glad someone understands. There is no reason to believe there was any "price gouging" going on. I'm offended to think that anyone would believe that the club would offer any vendors service to our members if we thought for a second that it wasn't worth the price. In fact the opposite is true. We go out of our way to secure deals and good vendors to introduce our members to. To think that myself or any other member of the club that helped set this up is so naive that we simply don't know anything about what were offering the club is absurd and offensive.

I hope enough information has been dispensed to educate everyone to dispel the thought there was any negative doing on the part of the club or our sponsors and this thread can be put to bed.

And I understand what you are saying. If all you want is hp numbers, then just go where it's needed. We weren't doing a deadhorse session to see who had the biggest dyno queen. We have a lot of members with GT500s and Roushes that have upgraded substantially since stock, and they wanted to see exact figures of where they were at, what their A/F Ratio since the last attempt was, etc.

When you are dynoing a car that runs 500+ at the wheels, you need to be accurate. That's what they paid for, accuracy.

Did I dyno my V6? No. It's simple, if you want to do it, do it. If you don't, don't.

Oh and BTW David and others, it is not my intention to piss any of you off. It is my intention to speak my mind (i.e. my opinion) based upon fact vs fact. The fact is I wasn't looking for anything free. The fact it I don't care about Kurtis having an hub dyno. The fact is all dynos are different based on many variables. The fact is I will not pay for a dyno session that is IN MY OPINION (and others' as well) over priced. The fact is IN MY OPINION if Kurtis is more competitive with other's dyno pricing, then I would consider having him dyno my car.

If you don't like the price, don't do it. Can still support the club and those that do wish to have him dyno their cars...

Nor was I looking toget my "HP" numbers. or see if I was the "Dyno Queen of the day". I was looking to meet old people and new people and have a dyno run done at at fair price. Sure the result was HP, TQ, A/F, and Boost PSI, but I didn't care that it had to be as close to or 100% accurate. I don't see $70 for 2 pulls with A/F, no matter the equipment, as a fair price, and that IS MY OPINION.. I see it as gouging, again, MY OPINION. Not all of us can afford $70 dyno sessions.

And since you all seem to be about accuracy, what good does that really do you when literally hour by hour, a car on the same dyno with the same operator can read different numbers (environment/weather being the variable that can cause this is what I'm referring to)?

Like I already stated Lee, I was out of town on that day, and I would not have, nor will I ever do a dyno session for 2 pulls with A/F for $70.

Each to his own. You or others can pay $xx.xx for your "more accurate" dyno sessions, and I'll pay $xx.xx - $xx.xx less than you for "less accurate" dyno sessions. And like I sadi earlier today, if Kurtis comes down with his pricing, I MAY consider getting a dyno session from him. Again, I have nothing against Kurtis or anyone that happens to be friends with him.

I just wanted to give my opinion based on facts. Isn't that what this forum is meant for (in part)?

IMO, it's only gouging if you are the only one available. Gouging is when every gas station in town raises gas to $5 a gallon because no one can afford to go without it, and people buy it because they have no other choice.

He is a business owner, and can set his prices wherever he wants. Obviously he is getting business at these rates.

I am a business owner, and I set my prices wherever I want. Sometimes I have better pricing that others, sometimes I am higher.

BASixxer wrote:IMO, it's only gouging if you are the only one available. Gouging is when every gas station in town raises gas to $5 a gallon because no one can afford to go without it, and people buy it because they have no other choice.

He is a business owner, and can set his prices wherever he wants. Obviously he is getting business at these rates.

I am a business owner, and I set my prices wherever I want. Sometimes I have better pricing that others, sometimes I am higher.

I can agree with what you typed Lee. Maybe my use of the words gouge and gouging were improper by definition of the word(s). I can also agree with the technical differences between and hub dyno vs. other that Dustin typed. I am no professional to be able to break them down like he did.

You get what you pay for. If you want to be so-so on your A/F that's ok, but you take a chance that things could turn for the worst and boom. In my case I want to be as accurate as possible. Kurtis has the most accurate equipment in the state and so "you get what you pay for". So for me to have piece of mind when I step on the pedal I'll pay a little more. Old saying is " You can pay a little now or a whole lot later".

I'm still new to a lot of it too, I grew up in the Import Scene and just got into American Muscle 3 years ago. Still trying to convert the business because I know little about today's import modifications.

I totally get what you are saying though, I guess it all comes down to what people are looking for. What one person looks for as important in a dyno isn't something that another person deems important.

Shop pride can sometime have a lot to do with it too. How much a shop owner feels their time is worth has a lot to do with their pricing.

Supersnake wrote:You get what you pay for. If you want to be so-so on your A/F that's ok, but you take a chance that things could turn for the worst and boom. In my case I want to be as accurate as possible. Kurtis has the most accurate equipment in the state and so "you get what you pay for". So for me to have piece on mind when I step on the pedal I'll pay a little more. Old saying is " You can pay a little now or a whole lot later".

Exactly.

Mike, on the specific topic of A/F, I think I will be fine with the wideband A/F gauge I plan on installing (provided it is installed properly and the parts work properly). If fact I feel, IN MY OPINION, having an A/F in your car (i.e. a reading you see very often) is way more accurate on a both micro and macro scales than the random dyno one may have done here or there (no matter what dyno or what the sensor brands are). .. Knowing what to do if it gets outside of safe parameters is a whole different story. That falls in the realm of the person who did or will fix the tune, and that is a whole different topic I will not get into....

BASixxer wrote:And I understand what you are saying. If all you want is hp numbers, then just go where it's needed. We weren't doing a deadhorse session to see who had the biggest dyno queen. We have a lot of members with GT500s and Roushes that have upgraded substantially since stock, and they wanted to see exact figures of where they were at, what their A/F Ratio since the last attempt was, etc.

When you are dynoing a car that runs 500+ at the wheels, you need to be accurate. That's what they paid for, accuracy.

Did I dyno my V6? No. It's simple, if you want to do it, do it. If you don't, don't.

Supersnake wrote:You get what you pay for. If you want to be so-so on your A/F that's ok, but you take a chance that things could turn for the worst and boom. In my case I want to be as accurate as possible. Kurtis has the most accurate equipment in the state and so "you get what you pay for". So for me to have piece of mind when I step on the pedal I'll pay a little more. Old saying is " You can pay a little now or a whole lot later".

And to these two replies, IT IS ALSO MY OPINION, that if one is so concerned about A/F accuracy and having peace of mind b/c they have high HP cars, they should have a wideband A/F gauge in their car, not rely on the times that they go to a dyno session to have it checked.

dynoing any car needs to be accurate. not just 500+. any car can go boom with poor tuning.

medrick wrote:dynoing any car needs to be accurate. not just 500+. any car can go boom with poor tuning.

I agree. In my case I was and still am on the factory tune (which I would and I hope you all can assume the Ford tune is safe), I had a K&N CAI (I bought it that way. It now has the OEM intake back in), and Magnaflow catted X and catback, so I wasn't concerned with a "bad tune" per say. I wanted a baseline reading of everything, and like I said to see old and meet new people.

AFM 1000 A/F sensor, google that and you might understand why I prefer to pay what I feel is a "Fair" price. I paid $30 for a dyno session at Vangs on a dynojet with a sniffer and it was merely for #'s. I dont trust any equipment that does not have an accurate A/F meter. Some Dynos that use bung sensors are using cheaper Bosch or X brand that I do not trust. They claim "Oh its just as accurate" yeah, I will go off of the past performance dictates future results mentality. They have tested each and every sensor and to be off even a 1/2 a point can potentially risk the motor, especially on boosted applications.

To put this into perspective, the ONLY A/F sensor system that Kenne Bell trusts to "question" their tune is an AFM 1000. Thats how accurate it is, its one of the closest to lab quality grade sensors on the market. I believe the cost on it started at $4000 just for the A/F equipment just a few years ago.

Here is a little info on the AFM 1000, I know this post is a few years old...but it has GREAT information on the accuracy of tuners equipment around the country. If you are tuning with inaccurate equipement..it could cost you thousands invested. Link is below, its a LOT of pages but trust me worth the read. There might be a more accurate one out since this thread, but I do not know of it. Click on the thread, great read and lots of info.

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/f17/tuning-dyno-f-vs-wideband-f-118587/

I know you mentioned having an A/F in ones car, but MOST on the market are junk. They are not as accurate as lab quality equipment. The AFX seems to be in the lead from what I can tell and others might be accurate to start with, then the sensors go to junk. I am not going to PLAY around with my tune and guess using inaccurate equipment. Also once the tune is set from the tuner and the A/F is safe using an ACCURATE A/F, I know I am good for the most part. I dont need a gauge in the car to look at all the time (which again most arent worth the cost and I definitely wouldnt tune with it)..... As long as its safe even when the downstream temps are going crazy I should be good. A tune thats uploaded to your car should NOT turn unsafe with the weather unless it is on the ragged edge, a SAFE tune with moderate timing, safe A/F ratio, should not have to be worried about IMO. No need for a gauge, but some prefer to use one in case something goes wrong and an unknown happens...you might be able to catch it before its too late.

So in my humble "opinion" $70 is NOT a rediculous amount to pay for using Kurtis's equipment. I am running a Jon Lund Tune, but trust whole heartedly Kurtis's equipment. To me a few more $'s on the dyno could save me a motor. And how much does a built motor cost? And about the 2 runs, if you absolutley wanted 3 Kurtis would have done it, he asked me if I wanted 3 and I said 2 was enough due to the #'s and A/F being exactly the same...no change.

Info on Dynapack Dyno

"The Dynapack™ direct couples to the wheel hubs and applies a precisely controlled hydraulic load. This method of direct coupling plus its built-in strength means the Dynapack™ is always in control of the vehicle.

Controlling a powerful car on a roller dyno can sometimes be a daunting task. With Dynapack™ you have total control of the vehicle, with no wheel slip due to its direct coupled design. With that there is no inertia to mask the results, giving you greatly improved sensitivity, repeatability and significantly reduced time spent tuning and mapping!

With the power of the Dynapack™ literally at your fingertips, you have complete control over the test and the demands placed on the vehicle. Flexible data presentation and analysis is available direct from the Dynapack™ in seconds.

Dynapack™ chassis dynamometers are such a radical departure from the stereotypical roller dyno that it really is in a class of its own. Most of the previous assumptions made about chassis dynos (the roller type) simply do not apply to the Dynapack™ series.

The NEW RPM Input uses the primary input to the coil pack that is readily accessible to clip onto (Low Voltage) and the NEW TPS Input clips onto the wire of the Throttle Position Switch (0.5V - 4.5V in the general range). Both of these can be dispalyed on the Dynapack Live Strip graph.

The NEW DUAL LAMBDA and DUAL MAP system gives you the flexibility to retrieve additional data and read both AFR and Lambda at once."

The system in its BASE offering I believe is around $50,000 up to $85,000 to purchase the Dyno...not including the AFM 1000 or extra software.

Here is the link, go to the "how its different" and "how it works" links and see WHY I think its OK for me to use this one rather than strap my car down to a possible mobile dyno (thats raised in the air or slightly raised) and risk the car that requires it to be strapped down.

http://www.dynapack.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=64


I understand that price is a concern to you and it is for all of us, But as you know, just because someone is cheaper around town does not mean the prices should drop. I believe in quality, therefore I am willing to pay more. Its the same theory in performance parts, you pay for what you get in most cases.

I hope you understand.

OSUALUM78 wrote:

medrick wrote:dynoing any car needs to be accurate. not just 500+. any car can go boom with poor tuning.

I agree. In my case I was and still am on the factory tune (which I would and I hope you all can assume the Ford tune is safe), I had a K&N CAI (I bought it that way. It now has the OEM intake back in), and Magnaflow catted X and catback, so I wasn't concerned with a "bad tune" per say. I wanted a baseline reading of everything, and like I said to see old and meet new people.

Then in your case, if you dont feel that $70 is appropriate being on the stock tune (nothing wrong with that, your opinion is your opinion) and just want #'s, boost, etc then another dyno that is cheaper might be what you are looking for.

For me, I want and need more. The guys running kenne Bells, Whipples, TVS's, etc and running aftermarket tunes need more as well. I wanted to "check" the work of the tuner and insure that I am not on the edge and am "Safe"

We all need different things

In all honesty I didn't think 75 was bad, for what I got invested in mine I didn't want to chance a motor getting effed up. I wanted the best a/f ratio on mine, sure vangs I can get 3 pulls for 30 bucks or whatever, but both times I went there my a/f ratio was saying 13 range using tailpipe. Then I had to pay again to take it to Gregs and use the a/f ratio sensor in a O2 bung and a/f ratio was damn near perfect.

Basically, I wanted the most accurate a/f ratio, didn't really care about the hp numbers as much. So thats why I didn't mind paying more, it was fun, great chili and Kurtis and Justin are heck of nice guys to deal with!

Also, Kurtis would look over my datalog file he recorded during dyno run and tell me if something didn't look right since he knows what to look for. Not gonna get that a vangs besides him telling ya its rich or lean.

Leonard 95 wrote:In all honesty I didn't think 75 was bad, for what I got invested in mine I didn't want to chance a motor getting effed up. I wanted the best a/f ratio on mine, sure vangs I can get 3 pulls for 30 bucks or whatever, but both times I went there my a/f ratio was saying 13 range using tailpipe. Then I had to pay again to take it to Gregs and use the a/f ratio sensor in a O2 bung and a/f ratio was damn near perfect.

Basically, I wanted the most accurate a/f ratio, didn't really care about the hp numbers as much. So thats why I didn't mind paying more, it was fun, great chili and Kurtis and Justin are heck of nice guys to deal with!

Also, Kurtis would look over my datalog file he recorded during dyno run and tell me if something didn't look right since he knows what to look for. Not gonna get that a vangs besides him telling ya its rich or lean.

Your car is slow

While we

I'm getting